Remembering Kevin Moore

Transcript Of LLVLC Show #686: Dr. John McDougall Interview

It was the most-listened-to podcast interview I’ve ever done when I aired my unforgettable, instant classic conversation with a staunch starch-based vegan diet advocate named Dr. John McDougall on Monday, June 3, 2013. People are STILL talking about the way Dr. McDougall conducted himself during that interview in such an arrogant, condescending and unprofessional manner. In fact, there are quite a few people who have simply refused to listen to the interview because of the horror stories they’ve heard about it from those who have. I completely understand. If you somehow missed it the first time around and would like to listen to it now, I have several options available to you below as well as an exclusive transcript of Episode 686 to see for yourself what all the fuss regarding this interview is about. Listen now or read the transcript and let me know what you thought about it in the comments section below.

Listen to “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show” Episode 686 – Interview with Dr. John McDougall:
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Jimmy Moore: Today, I am very pleased to welcome to the podcast, a gentleman by the name of Dr. John McDougall. He is the medical director of The McDougall Program. It is a 10-day residential program in Santa Rosa, California. He uses a low-fat, starch-based diet that results in dramatic health benefits and the reversal of serious illnesses, such as heart disease without drugs. He is the co-author of The Starch Solution, and the author of The McDougall Program as well as many other books. You can visit his web site drmcdougall.com. Dr. McDougall welcome to the show.

Dr. John McDougall: Well thank you, good to talk to you.

Jimmy: Same, and we are really happy to have you here today. Some people may not know who you are. You were a part of the Forks Over Knives movie. You have been out there many years. I remember listening to an interview you did with Dr. Atkins. So, you have definitely been around the block for a little while, but there are a lot of people that may not know who you are. Can you give us your story, your background about how you got interested in medicine?

Dr. McDougall: Sure. I started medical school in 1968, and I was in the Midwest, in Detroit and actually in Michigan State University, and had a great opportunity to meet my lifelong partner there. Her name is Mary and she is the co-author of the books and also the one that has devised approximately 3,000 recipes that are published in various books and also about 400 or 500 of them are free on the website, which you kindly mentioned at drmcdougall.com. Mary and I, after leaving Michigan, we moved to Hawaii. I did an internship there. I am a medical doctor. I did an internship at The Queen’s Medical Center and after that year between 1972 and 1973, I had an opportunity to change my life forever. I got a job as a sugar plantation doctor on the Big Island of Hawaii. What that means is that I took care of 5,000 people during a 3-year period of time, who lived on the Big Island of Hawaii. I took care of all their needs. I caught their babies. I pronounced them dead. I did brain surgery in the middle of the night if that was necessary, and that experience, those 3 years, changed my life permanently. The first thing that I learned during that 3 year experience, because I was basically their doctor. The nearest specialist was 41 miles away. As I learned my limitations as a doctor, I expected to do these miraculous things as a physician because I had watched Marcus Welby, Ben Casey, and Dr. Kildare, and I knew what really good doctors did and that was not my performance level. As a matter of fact, my patients did terrible, and I took it personally. Well, you know, some of my patients did well, those who had acute problems like lacerations and broken bones. I could get in there and fix things up for them, but people that had chronic diseases like obesity, heart disease, constipation, indigestion, arthritis, diabetes and so on, I couldn’t help them. I tried as hard as I could. I put them on the best medications, multiple medications, surgeries and so on, and they stayed sick. So, for those 3 years, I didn’t have a very high opinion of myself as physician. The other thing that really changed my life is I had a chance to change my own personal diet by observing what my patients ate. I was in a unique situation. I was taking care of first, second, third, and fourth generation people. What that means is I was taking care of first generation people who were raised and educated in childhood in different countries like the Philippians, Japan, Korea, and China. These first generation people, they learned a diet of rice and vegetables. When they moved to the Big Island of Hawaii, they kept their diet of rice and vegetables. No dairy, almost no meat, very little meat in their diet. On the Big Island of Hawaii they had children, second generation. The children were exposed to Western ways. They started eating more meat and less rice. Third generation, they were really into the meat and the dairy, and pretty much made the rice and other vegetables side dishes. What I saw right in front of me during those 3 years, as a sugar plantation doctor, is I saw a dramatic change in the health of people in their personal appearance. The first generation, they were trim, healthy, hearty, hard-working, young looking, and they lived into their 90’s on rice and vegetables, no dairy, almost no meat. The second generation, as they abandoned their traditional starch based diet got fatter and sicker and by the time you got to the third generation they were typical Americans. Typical Americans, two-thirds of the people are over weight, half have heart disease, 1 out of 6 gets breast and prostate cancer. They were sick people. Well after those 3 years of being disappointed in myself because I could not help people with chronic disease and learning what I believe is the human diet, which is a starch based diet, I left the plantation and I went back into training. I went back to the University of Hawaii and I became a board certified internist. About 1978, I stopped practicing traditional medicine. So, I have been at this for 38 to 39 years. You do the math. I have been at it for a long time. I have been taking care of people based on feeding them a diet of rice, corn, potatoes, beans, peas, lentils, fruits, and vegetables, taking away their meat that includes chicken, fish, beef, pork, taking away their dairy and they thrive. As a matter of fact, we are in the process of publishing results on 1,700 of our patients, who we know what they did. We know how their diet changed and they have tremendous drops in cholesterol in 7 days. The average weight loss is a half a pound a day, which is about 3-1/2 pounds in 7 days. They get off their blood pressure pills, their diabetic medication, their bowels start working, the indigestion goes away. So, this will be our second paper that we have published on our results and we are also in the process of publishing a paper with Oregon Health & Science University, the Neurology Department, on multiple sclerosis. That particular study that is done by the Neurology Department of Oregon Health & Science University, we see the same results, tremendous drops in cholesterol, tremendous drops in weights over a 1-year period of time by the way. We have data from Oregon Health & Science University on compliance that shows in 1-year, people taught the diet that I recommend, in 1 year over 80% of the people followed the diet 100% and their average fat intake compared to the control group went from 40% to 15% and they maintained it for a year and I have to say, they loved it. They enjoyed the food and the changes of weight and blood pressure and cholesterol and so on, were phenomenal. The reason I got this study going and the reason the Neurology Department has been doing it for the last 4 years, is we hope to show that we can stop multiple sclerosis with a diet that is high carbohydrate, based on starch, with virtually no meat and no dairy, and no olive oil, and it is exciting work. So, you have something you would like to say?

Jimmy: I do. Have you heard of Dr. Terry Wahls?

Dr. McDougall: Yeah. She is a case study of one.

Jimmy: Okay and she has lots of patients that she has put on her Wahls protocol, which is kind of the opposite of what you’re doing, but still seeing great success with people with multiple sclerosis.

Dr. McDougall: She has no data. She is a case study of one Dr. Wahls is. Dr. Wahls may end up publishing some data that is relevant, but the work that we do at Oregon Health & Science University is based on 5,000 patients, over a period of 50 years, done by Dr. Roy Swank, who could be considered the father of multiple sclerosis. So, you can compare. Well, nobody knows how to compare it because Dr. Terry Wahls has no data and everything I know about what she teaches says that it will not work, should not work, it is a dangerous diet, but hey, maybe she will show something otherwise when she finally gets around to doing studies and publish it in the scientific literature, which she has not done. As I say, I have work based on 5,000 people over 50 years, done by the head of Neurology at Oregon Health & Science University, his name is Dr. Roy Swank and we are in the process of publishing a randomized, single blinded control study with Oregon Health & Science University, Neurology Department, so there is the comparison.

Jimmy: Sure, sure. Now I wanted to go back to something you said earlier regarding the second and third generations of people groups that you were a part of and you were saying that they got worse and worse ostensibly because they added more meat to their diet…(interrupted).

Dr. McDougall: And less rice, less rice.

Jimmy: And less starch. So, I wonder how much of those people groups added back in more refined carbohydrates that possibly could have contributed to their health decline.

Dr. McDougall: Well refined carbohydrates are not health food. Sugar is not health food. But the major change in their diet was the same thing that has happened to many, many, many, groups of people that your listeners can relate to, so let’s go into this for just a minute.

Jimmy: Sure.

Dr. McDougall: The main support for my argument that we should be eating a starch-based, high-carbohydrate, low -at, low animal food, low oil diet is that that is what everybody has always done. All large successful populations of people throughout all of verifiable human history have consumed a diet based on starch. Let me give you some examples. It is easy for your listeners to relate to Asians. Even today, there are 2 billion Asians who live on rice based diets, and by the way, it happens to be white rice. These people are trim, long lived, low rates of heart disease, breast cancer, prostate cancer, colon cancer, but of course all that is changing, as they give up their rice in China and Japan, Korea and Vietnam and start to eat more meat, more dairy. The second example for those of you who have a little bit of history, you know about populations of people for thousands of years, like for example, the Aztecs and the Mayans. We are talking about cultures that existed for 800 to 1,300 years, those people from Central America are known as the people of the corn. They lived on maize, on corn, that was the primary intake of food. They were healthy, trim, hearty warriors. If you go a little further south you see the Incas in the Andes in South America. These people lived back then, these civilizations lived on potatoes, white potatoes, and other kinds of potatoes. There are about 400 different species of potatoes in the Andes. When the Incas went to battle they switched to quinoa because they thought it would add more to their strength. Still today in Peru, it is primarily a potato based diet and they have a low incidence of obesity, heart disease, breast cancer, colon cancer. Today, of course, their diet is changing to, just like the Asians, who are giving up their rice in Asia and eating more meat. They are getting fatter and sicker. Lets take another example, our focus and attention whenever you turn on the news is the Middle East. Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, those kinds of countries. That area of the world used to be known as the bread basket of the world. They lived on wheat and barley and vegetables, no dairy, almost no meat at all. We are talking about 4,000 years of recordable history. Still, if you look at the people from the Middle East, turn on your TV tonight, you look at the people of the Middle East, these men and women who live on a diet that is 71% carbohydrate are trim, strong, healthy, hearty people. Now the rich folks, in other words, the kings, the queens, the wealthy business people in Asia, the Middle East, South America, Central America, and you know you don’t have to be really rich to be put in the category of eating rich food now a days because it has become affordable to the masses of people, but watch what happens to them. Look at the Asians, the Latinos, the other people who have grandmas and grandpas who lived on high carbohydrate hard starch diets, look at their kids. They are fat and sick as they give up the carbohydrate, the starch. It happens every time. You can give me not a single example of any large successful population of people throughout any period of verifiable human history that does not fit with what I just said, can you?

Jimmy: But are they giving up the starch based carbohydrates and replacing them with these refined carbohydrates that then sets in motion some metabolic disturbances which makes it difficult to…(interrupted).

Dr. McDougall: That is absolutely silly. You are trying to make something that is not true. The major change in their diet is from starch to meat and dairy, and yes they add sugar, but you are trying to divert the conversation away from the major issues and facts.

Jimmy: No, I am just asking the question.

Dr. McDougall: Excuse me just a minute.

Jimmy: Okay.

Dr. McDougall: Sugar is not health food. Sugar rots the teeth. Sugar is empty calories. We both agree on that, but sugar is not the problem, Mr. Moore. The problem is the fat. The problem is the meat. The problem is the dairy. The problem is this. Let me explain it to you, because I know you have a history of going from a thin man to a very overweight man and I do not know what your particular situation is now, but I have seen your pictures. I am not trying to be personally insulting. I am just trying to explain…(interrupted).

Jimmy: You haven’t seen my recent pictures because I am lower in weight today than I have ever been in my entire adult life.

Dr. McDougall: Congratulations, maybe you are following the McDougall diet.

Jimmy: No sir, the opposite of it.

Dr. McDougall: Let’s get to some things here.

Jimmy: Sure.

Dr. McDougall: People have to eat Mr. Moore. They must eat. So, they have a choice as to what they are going to eat.

Jimmy: Sure.

Dr. McDougall: They can eat meat and dairy, or sugar, which you and I agree is not health food. So, let’s stop going there, okay? Or they can eat rice, corn, potatoes, beans, peas, and lentils. That is what I am recommending. I am not recommending sugar. You understand that. So, leave it alone. What I want people to do is I want them to eat the traditional diet of human beings, which by the way can be dated back 2 million years. I can give you examples of how the Paleo people have lied and distorted the literature. Would you like to go into that subject for awhile?

Jimmy: Please do, but let me interject one more people group that you have not mentioned that does not have any starch in their diet and that is the Inuits. They lived on whale blubber and primarily a mostly meat-based diet and yet they were free from heart disease and had no health complications whatsoever. How do you explain that?

Dr. McDougall: You’re getting desperate. Let’s talk about this for minute. I said all large successful populations of people. Would you consider the Inuit Eskimo a large successful population of people?

Jimmy: They are the largest one we know of that has a carnivorous diet.

Dr. McDougall: Well, they are a matter of a few thousand people who lived on the fringes of the environment. The extremes of the environment. The Inuit Eskimo is a testament to how the human being can survive. Seven months of the year they lived on the Atkins diet and they survived. The Inuit Eskimo, and I know this hunter gather population, now we are not talking about the modern Eskimo. We are not talking about the modern people who live in that area of the world now. They are of course very fat, very sick. Very high rates of heart disease and tooth decay and so on because they have adopted the Western diet. But the typical Inuit Eskimo, who have studied for many, many years, the average lifespan was 27 years, just like other hunter gathers. The Inuit Eskimo has the highest rate of osteoporosis of any population on planet earth and every decade of life compared to Americans. They have a higher rate of osteoporosis, the Inuit Eskimo does. I can take you back 5,000 years. In fact, I will give you the reference. It is a 1987 issue of the National Geographic and you can read about 2 women that were buried in an ice flow, 500 years ago they were buried, and so their bodies were preserved. When they uncovered these women and they reported their results in National Geographic in 1987, they estimated their age was 20 and the other one was 40 years old. They found severe osteoporosis in both women and atherosclerosis, in other words hardening of the arteries in both women 500 years ago. The Inuit Eskimo is an example of the ability of the human being to survive under adverse circumstances.

Jimmy: Okay. So, I do have a question regarding starch-based diets for people in America because quite frankly, we have been exposed to an enormous amount of refined carbohydrates which have metabolic (interrupted).

Dr. McDougall: I asked you not to go there again.

Jimmy: Well, I think it is relevant.

Dr. McDougall: We already discussed that. Let’s get on to the major thing that I recommend and stop trying to get me to go into an area that I have already answered. Let’s talk about rice, corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes, beans, peas, and lentils, and stop the simple sugar stuff. I have already told you simple sugar is not good for you. It rots your teeth. It is not part of my diet except for a tiny amount to flavor the food. Let’s get on to the major discussion here. Excuse me, Mr. Moore, should we be eating our primary source of calories as rice, corn, potatoes, beans, peas, and lentils or as you contend chicken, fish, beef, and pork? That is the subject, stick to it please.

Jimmy: And I will stick to it once I get my caveat in because I think it is an important one because the American diet has long been now very focused not just on the refined sugars, I am agreeing with you on that. Refined sugars are horrible, but also the refined flours that are out there. Those have caused such metabolic damage in some of us Americans, myself included, that it makes it difficult even for these real food based starches that you are talking about to not have a negative impact on our health.

Dr. McDougall: Mr. Moore can you explain to me why you have had such a difficult time with your weight over the years? I have seen your pictures. In fact, you know that Vegsource did a whole video production on your personal health.

Jimmy: It was incorrect by the way…(interrupted).

Dr. McDougall: Excuse me, let me finish my question. Can you explain to me why you have struggled so much with your personal health and weight?

Jimmy: I can tell you that I grew up on a diet that was extremely high in refined carbohydrates. My mom was very poor growing up and had to take care of 3 children on her own. She was a single mom. So, we ate really horrible carb-based foods and when I say carb I am talking about refined carbs for the most part. Had I not had to go through that kind of experience, I think I probably would have been able to tolerate all of the foods that are a part of your program. Unfortunately, because of the metabolic damage that has taken place as result of consuming those foods, and I am not alone in that realm either, I don’t think I would be having issues with insulin, leptin, and the other things that regulate weight. Now, as I said earlier, I am lower in weight now than I have ever been in my entire human adult life because of doing what is right for me. I found what is right for me. It just happens to be the opposite of what you recommend, but I think that is a lesson in and of itself Dr. McDougall. There is no one size fits all. We all need to find the way that is right for us and then apply that so that we can be optimally healthy regardless of what that choice is.

Dr. McDougall: Alright, well let me answer that. There is one diet that fits all. The human being has a diet. There must be a diet best for people. It is just like a dog has a best diet. I have a dog I like very much. I make sure that he gets the best diet. I have a cat that has a best diet. I make sure he gets the best diet. I used to have birds. They have an ideal diet. I never fed my birds meat. I never fed my cat nuts and seeds, and by the way, I have never fed any of my animals refined sugar, ice cream, and other junk. Mr. Moore, there must be a diet ideal for people. It has to be. I mean nature would not make such a serious mistake. My best argument as to what that diet is, is 10 billion people. All of human history, all, all, all, large successful populations of people throughout all of verifiable history have lived on diets – high carbohydrates based on starch. Now, can you contest that statement?

Jimmy: I can contest that in modern society all bets are off with those 10 billion people because they did not have to deal with Doritos, Twinkies, Coca-Cola, and all the other modern neolithic foods that I say have caused more metabolic damage than those people that lived thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and millions of years ago.

Dr. McDougall: So, you cannot address that question?

Jimmy: No, I just answered it.

Dr. McDougall: You did not answer it.

Jimmy: Yes sir I did.

Dr. McDougall: Okay, you did not answer it. Okay, let’s get on, because we do not have a lot of time. Your show is very valuable.

Jimmy: Thank you.

Dr. McDougall: Mr. Moore, I have taken care of 10,000 people. I have taken care of 5,000 in a living situation. I have published my results in scientific literature, and I take care of people just like you everyday. I have never found a person who does not positively respond to our diet. In other words, I have never found somebody who switches to rice, corn, potatoes, beans, peas, lentils, vegetables, and fruits, gives up the olive oil, the meat, and the dairy, who does not get the results that I predict. Mr. Moore, this would be similar to a patient who smokes cigarettes, quitting tobacco, and not getting well. How often do you think that happens? This would be similar to a hardcore alcoholic, quitting alcohol and not getting well. How often do you think that happens? One final statement Mr. Moore and then you can go on to your metabolic stuff and your sugar stuff and you can fail to address the issues, if you want. But one more thing, this is a simple thing to do, it will work for you. It always works if you switch people from the wrong food which is meat and dairy and sugar and oil, which is what kings and queens and pharaohs and priests eat. You switch them to what I believe, and all of human history shows that and so does all the scientific literature. We could discuss any individual studies you want, because I am pretty well versed on the studies. They show when you switch people to starch-based diets they get well, just like when they quit booze, they get well. This is as close as a half a bottle of whiskey and a hangover, Mr. Moore. I am a doctor. I am a medical doctor. I have taken care of 5,000 people. If I had a chance to help you, I would.

Jimmy: But I don’t need help because I am in an extremely good position today with both my weight and my health. You say you have seen pictures of me, but you have not seen the most recent pictures of me because I am in a better place today than I have been in very long time. In my life, I have never been this low in weight as an adult.

Dr. McDougall: H-how’s the constipation?

Jimmy: I don’t have constipation.

Dr. McDougall: Well excuse me. Robert Atkins published a study along with Weston a few years ago, which showed that about 70% of his patients on low-carb diets were constipated. About 60% had halitosis. So, how is the constipation?

Jimmy: I don’t have either one of those. I have neither one of those.

Dr. McDougall: Well, that is what the research says on low carbohydrate diets published by Eric Weston and Robert Atkins. How’s the constipation?

Jimmy: Actually, his name is Eric Westman.

Dr. McDougall: Okay, excuse me. Thank you.

Jimmy: That’s alright. You’re good. So, I don’t have those issues. I have doing this for nearly a decade, and yes I have had struggles with my weight. I have been extremely honest about that, but at this point in my life I am eating a very high-fat, animal-based diet, moderated in protein, very low in carbohydrates and I am doing extremely well. How can you explain somebody like Jimmy Moore that is doing well on a diet that is the very antithesis of what you promote?

Dr. McDougall: You have not done well over the decade Mr. Moore, I got the videos to show it.

Jimmy: I did not say the last decade. I said I am doing very well today.

Dr. McDougall: Well, today’s today, but you know, these kinds of diets that are being recommended by low-carbers are very dangerous.

Jimmy: How is it dangerous?

Dr. McDougall: Well because those kinds of foods cause heart disease, hemorrhoids, constipation.

Jimmy: I have zero heart disease risk. I do not have anything that indicates this. I have no calcified plaque in my arteries. My CRP level is well below one. I have all these great metabolic markers. How do I have heart disease risk?

Dr. McDougall: You are a study of one, Mr. Moore. You are a study of one. We go to the Annals Of Internal Medicine, last year’s British Medical Journal and multiple other research papers of hundreds and thousands of people that show that low-carb diets, like you are recommending, are dangerous. They increase the risk of heart disease. They increase the risk of death.

Jimmy: No.

Dr. McDougall: Mr. Moore, don’t negate the science. You cannot…(interrupted).

Jimmy: I am not negating the science. I am just reiterating the science.

Dr. McDougall: You cannot use yourself as an example.

Jimmy: It’s not just me.

Dr. McDougall: To debate a hundred years of scientific research done by tens of thousand’s of investigators that show that eating meat and dairy throughout all of human history that I have just showed you. You cannot give yourself as an example to your listeners as the full reason why they should listen to this nonsense…(interrupted).

Jimmy: Nor have I given that as the full reason. There are a lot of people that take this way of eating and have done extremely well with it. It’s not just an n of one with Jimmy Moore. This is a lot of people Dr. McDougall. I am just saying that if people want to eat a starch-based diet as you are proposing in your book, The Starch Solution, then by all means go do that, be happy, be healthy. I am all for people finding what works for them, but if a high-fat, meat-based diet does it for someone else, why are you not in favor of wanting people to be healthy that way?

Dr. McDougall: Because I am a medical doctor and I have a responsibility to my patients and to the general population, and Mr. Moore, the scientific evidence is absolutely clear and uncontestable that the human being does not live well on meat. It increases the risk of heart disease, colon cancer, damage to the bones, so why should I allow you to misinform even your listeners? You cannot do this. You will not get away with it. Neither will Westman. Neither will Taubes. Neither will Cordain. Listen, I did a whole video along with Vegsource…(interrupted).

Jimmy: And it was wrong.

Dr. McDougall: Excuse me. Mr. Moore, let’s let your listeners watch the video…(interrupted).

Jimmy: Oh, I am happy to post it.

Dr. McDougall: Please post it.

Jimmy: I will.

Dr. McDougall: Really do it. I want to make sure they watch this because you are a nice man, you got a few facts, there are some heavier weights out there like Cordain and Taubes. Atkins is dead. You know there are some heavier weights out there that know the science a bit better than you do. It is hard sometimes for listeners to understand really what is going on.

Jimmy: Yeah, I am also going to post that video that you guys lied about me on Vegsource because that was not at all accurate and I think it should be corrected, but you’re not going to because you don’t care.

Dr. McDougall: Well, I will correct it if it is inaccurate. I will make sure it is corrected. You just send it to me. You have never asked me to correct anything…(interrupted).

Jimmy: Oh, yes I did. I did a response video and Vegsource did another response video which mocked me responding to it.

Dr. McDougall: Well, then you know what, why don’t you let your listeners watch all those videos and decide for themselves? Let’s make sure your listeners get to watch the video that Vegsource and I produced. You go to YouTube and look at “Low-Carb vs. Plant-Based.” Or you go to my website drmcdougall.com or you go to Mr. Moore’s website because he is going to post that video. And you watch…(interrupted)

Jimmy: Yes sir.

Dr. McDougall: Excuse me, Mr. Moore you are not letting me finish.

Jimmy: I just said, yes sir.

Dr. McDougall: Okay.

Jimmy: I just agreed with you. Calm down a bit. Calm down.

Dr. McDougall: Okay, well you know, you asked me why I get excited about this because people are dying with your advice.

Jimmy: No, sir they’re not.

Dr. McDougall: Who are you to say? What is your background? Are you a doctor?

Jimmy: I don’t need to be a doctor to know the evidence is true.

Dr. McDougall: Why can you say this, Mr. Moore? Why can you say this? What is your authority? How much research have you done? Can I continue?

Jimmy: Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. McDougall: Alright, so go to YouTube and watch “Low-Carb vs. Plant-Based” or go to my website drmcdougall.com or go to Jimmy Moore’s website and you will see what Loren Cordain and Sally Fallon and Barry Sears and Robert Atkins and the other low-carbers look like. Excuse me, they are fat and sick. I think it is the best testament as to the results of this kind of eating. People are unhealthy because it is the wrong food. Mr. Moore, your previous videos show the same history and I hope you learn the truth for your own sake because I as a medical doctor, I as a board certified internist, I can tell you, I would work day and night to help somebody like you save your life.

Jimmy: Well, I appreciate that very much and I do feel like I am in a great place with what I am doing at this moment. But I sincerely appreciate that you took time to come on “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show” today and we are very grateful that you were here Dr. McDougall. Again, his name Dr. John McDougall. His paperback version of The Starch Solution: Eat the Foods You Love, Regain Your Health, and Lose the Weight for Good is going to be available this week actually. And you can visit his web site, drmcdougall.com. Dr. McDougall, thanks so much for joining us here today on “The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show.”

Dr. McDougall: It was definitely my pleasure. Thank you, Mr. Moore.

  • Carole Sampson

    Yep – I tried but couldn’t listen to that interview. I shall attempt to read the transcript and see if I can stomach that!

  • McDougall comes off even worse in the transcript than he did on the interview. Who would have thought that could be possible?!?

  • Linda Hall

    oh – it gives me a stomach ache to read this! Listening was bad enough.

  • therealjeaniebeanie

    “It was definitely my pleasure.” Funny, he didn’t sound very happy at all!

  • primenumbers

    Thanks for the transcript. Much easier than listening to him sticking his fingers in his ears!

  • Marie Watson

    I am a follower of the McDougall plan but I have to admit, Dr. McDougall was quite rude in this interview and, in my opinion, undermined his own position. I followed low carb for a few years and lost several pounds but was not able to maintain even a small loss very long. Now, following the McDougall way of eating, I have not lost any weight (when I posted on his message boards to ask for help, I was insulted and accused of cheating). But there are enough studies to convince me about low-fat plant-based diet for health, so I keep trying. Anyway, McDougal fans may not like to admit it, but Dr. McDougall did not present his best side in this interview.

    • LLVLCBlog

      THANKS for your comments, Marie. I wish you well in your own health journey and encourage you to keep searching out what works best for YOU.

  • Peggy Holloway

    Someone needs to send him videos of Gary Taubes and Peter Attia. Those two are in their 50s are the most buffed hunks I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen Gary in person). It seems his main argument is that his vegans are thin and the low-carbers are “fat.” My very healthy and very thin paleo/low-carb son spent 10 days at a yoga retreat where the provided food (which the participants were required to eat) was vegan with the staple being potato soup. He was absolutely miserable and his ADHD came back full force. He says his meditation practice was the only thing that kept him from going stark-raving mad. At the end of the retreat, he could visibly see the loss of muscle mass in his thighs. So, yes, he got even thinner, but not in a healthy way.

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    Yeah, he was super rude and tense, but I think he was frustrated by your lack of serious arguments. xD So what if you achieve a low weight whilst eating whatever it is your eating? Anorexics can do that in very unhealthy ways. A snapshot of a persons health, at a single moment, proves very little. The Inuits prove very little. I don’t think either of you are right, honestly, but haha, he’s got a bit more evidence on his side.

    • LLVLCBlog


      • disqus_35AwukS8d1

        Let me elaborate…

        All my blood tests have come back *perfect* EVERY SINGLE TIME I’ve been tested, even though my health isn’t very good (I’ve been diagnosed with two illnesses). Sure, blood testing is a valuable tool, but sometimes it doesn’t offer much insight. It’s a mere isolated snapshot of a person’s health at a given moment.

        I brought up the anorexia, because obviously you can lose weight by eating small amounts of anything, whatever the macronutrient ratio. Will you keep it off that way? Probably not, unless you die of starvation. =/ Thinness, on it’s own, doesn’t really indicate health. A diet which results in weight loss, doesn’t necessarily also result in health.

        Just because the Inuit people survived on all that fat and protein, doesn’t negate the existence of the several isolated groups Weston A. Price visited who thrived on carbohydrate foods. Your only argument against McDougall on this point, is “oh but the refined carbs we’ve been eating today broke our insulin system, and now we can’t handle ANY carbs of any sort, even the good ones you promote.”

        Now, as you understand, I think, Jimmy, we are also eating a lot of “unnatural,” processed fats. You know, the hydrogenated soybean oil, and other highly refined seed oils like canola… So couldn’t McDougall argue that these fats have broken our like, fat digestion system? That it would be better if instead, we relied on carbohydrate foods, and from them our bodies would produce the pure saturated fat we need?

        Meanwhile, McDougall has had people bring their blood sugar levels to normal using the “wholesome” carbohydrate foods he suggests. So, how can you insist that EVERYONE with blood sugar issues must avoid all carbohydrate foods in order to correct that imbalance? If I were McDougall, I’d be pretty frustrated, too. (If you’re interested, look at Chris Randall’s story: http://www.realrawresults.com/ It’s similar to yours, Jimmy, and yet… He lost the weight using a high-calorie, high-carbohydrate vegan approach.)

        You blame carbs, McDougall considers them the saviour of mankind. He blames saturated fat, you attribute your good health to the consumption of large quantities of it. Neither of you are going to be able to have an intelligent discussion, unless you concede that, yes, the other has had some level of success with his chosen approach, and open your minds enough to ask why.

        Personally, I think illness results due to a very complex number of factors. Stress, the diet industry, crappy vegetable oils, lack of sleep, lack of calories, lack of sunlight, hereditary, the ridiculous notion that everyone ought to be skinny (despite individuals having varying weight setpoints), low thyroid function, adrenal fatigue, harmful pharmaceuticals, and probably many factors we haven’t determined yet, all contribute.

        The trick, therefore, is to determine how to best reduce all these stresses. Maybe for some, carbohydrates are very anti-stressing. Others maybe need to scarf down the liver pate. That’s why I think you’re both wrong. You both make there to be demons where there are none. (And I shouldn’t have said the McDougall has more evidence. He doesn’t. You just… Can’t pwn his with the evidence you have, anymore than he can pwn yours. 😛 No winners.)

        Make more sense, now Jimmy?

        • LLVLCBlog

          I wanted an open discussion. He did not.

    • disqus_35AwukS8d1

      *Should’ve said that he has a few more people groups who thrive on carbohydrate foods, than you do. But this proves nothing against saturated fats, or whole carbohydrate foods, either. Evidence wise, I’d say you’re evenly matched.

  • Kentu

    Sorry you had such an ordeal, Jimmy. But your interview w/Dr. McDougall brings up a special point I’ve been chewing on: Unless a Doctor is not only studiously following all the current trials/research[we all know it can be quite difficult to cut through all the technical details and sometimes even biases], and has a clear understanding of modern [last 5 years?] cellular biology, they are left with [at the best institutions] the medical science taught at least a few years behind, when they started their internship.

    I imagine most of us are quite dazzled by the technologies used in research, and some of the incredible chemistry being discovered. [And, I have the advantage of time/solitude to study such.] So how can a medical professional, working long, sometimes very difficult hours keep-up? Really.

    I think you and I are alike in our difficulties [call it a food-culture inheritance] and our practical self-experimentation [I believe] combines the best of nutritional science and anthropological analyses [like Dr. Cordains’ work]. But God help us if you want to change the mind of a highly educated man, with out the Imprmator of the various medical authorities! Kentu

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    Haha sorry for all the gramatical errors above. -.-

    Anyway, I wanted to add a request for some podcast guests!

    1. Linda Bacon – http://www.lindabacon.org/ (Have you heard of her?)

    2. Gwyneth Olwyn – http://www.youreatopia.com/about (She’s writing a book about recovery for those with eating disorders. It’s supposed to be out this summer. More diet gurus need to warn their students about these disorders–because they are often triggered by a diet.)

    3. Chris Randal – http://www.realrawresults.com/ (Cause he just wrote a book with Matt Stone called “The Vegan Solution.” There are probably some vegans-turned-low-carbers who would be interested in hearing about some little-known reasons vegan diets tend to fail so miserably.)

    DISCLAIMER: I am not a vegan troll. 😛 I eat meat and cheese, often on pizza.

  • disqus_35AwukS8d1

    Because nobody, except maybe Jimmy, is going to read the other wall of text I just posted, I’d like to just highlight this:

    You blame carbs, McDougall considers them the saviour of mankind. He blames saturated fat, you attribute your good health to it. Neither of you are going to be able to have an intelligent discussion, unless you concede that, yes, the other has had some level of success with his chosen approach, and open your minds enough to ask why.

    That’s the main problem with the interview. It was stubborn head-butting, from both sides.

    • LLVLCBlog

      I was trying to find common ground. He was having nothing of it.

  • Carol Zhou

    Well I am amazed and disappointed by how much heated controversy there remains about diet after so many years and so many billions of dollars spent on research. I decided that the only thing to do was to conduct my own personal experiment. Ok, it’s a sample size of one, but it’s the only “one” I really care about: myself. How to proceed. Clearly my genetics are against me; cardiovascular diseases are common in my ancestry, and my blood lipids have been horrible for the past decade. I plotted all the numbers I have going back 13 years and alongside I noted the diet/food types I was consuming along the way. For several decades I followed the food pyramid with whole grains (really “healthy” options all around), and during 3 years I went fully vegetarian. I have to say that during my vegetarian experience I gained 20 pounds and my blood lipids went off the charts ( at one point, TG=454, TG/HDL=14, etc.). If those numbers mean anything, then I was headed for a massive coronary in short order. I took Crestor for 2 years, but after that much time it seemed to stop helping. 5 months ago I went low-carb and I have seen great improvement in TG and HDL. My LDLs are no worse. I was pattern ‘B’ before low-carb and that has not changed. Thus, some improvement but I have a ways to go. I am certainly not going back to the standard dietary recommendations because, well frankly, I experimented with that for 3 decades and found myself on the road to repeating family history. At least now I’m doing better. Time will tell if the trend continues. I am female, in my late 50s. I have never been overweight, according the the standard charts, but was “skinny fat” after 3 years of vegetarianism. I have never smoked and gave up sugar and went whole-grain 30 years ago.

  • Carol Zhou

    I find it incredulous that Dr. McDougall never encountered a person on the high-starch diet with metabolic syndrome. Well, he never saw me, and probably wouldn’t want to, because I would be the exception to his rule. And I do not believe that I am a very special case. Clearly Dr. McDougall came to this interview with an agenda to push. The interviewer was being fair.

  • Katherine James

    I made it through most of the episode. I’ve known he’s misguided, but I never realized how much of a rude asshole he actually is. It’ll be a good day when Dr. Wahls publishes her work. It’s so offensive making her sound lazy. It takes time for the people enrolled to reach an endpoint. But McDougall is one of those fools who’ll go to the grave with his delusions. It’d be interesting to see his PET scan wouldn’t it?

  • Ted Moon

    As always, time will tell who is correct. Oh? McDougall is slim and so is his wife? Proof is in the pictures and a long time frame of pictures as well. McDougall has been on it for over 30 years. Good luck to all the high fat, meat eaters. This discussion is moot. McDougall cares about all but I know the message, been on his program for almost 3 years. If you want to go and eat meat and fat, please do. Please eat lots of it. I mean lots. Thanks Jimmy for the interview but to McDougall’s comments, you could have addressed the sugar issue before McDougall’s interview. His views on sugar is already post on YouTube. Your comments on the Inuits, please go live with them and then write your book on living the life.

    • LLVLCBlog

      Slim does not mean healthy. It’s just such a shame your favorite health guru was disinterested in having a discussion about something very important like the metabolic effect that some foods have on certain people. That’s all.

      • Ted Moon

        Hey Jimmy, thanks for the reply. If what you said is true, then why were you upset that vegsource poked fun at you for being overweight? I think the point was that you cannot tell others what to do if you yourself cannot follow what you preach.

        As for meat and fat, if you really believe that starches are bad for you and meats and fats is the answer, why don’t we put your money where your mouth is? I will agree to go solely starch and veggies (no meat, no dairy, no seafood) and you promise only to eat meat, dairy and seafood for 1 year? We can take pictures and post them everyday. You and I must log in what we eat and any”exercise”.” I am not trying to show you up but this debate has to end once and for all and I am willing to see how this will work. If you are up for the challenge, please let me know.

        • LLVLCBlog

          I do this somewhat already, so it’s no challenge.

          • LLVLCBlog

            But we are not the same. Have you been 400+ pounds in your life? Not likely.