Comments on: David Brown, Dr. Rod Jackson, And Jimmy Moore: A Saturated Fat Roundtable Discussion http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260 To educate, encourage, and inspire the world to start low-carb living Thu, 24 May 2012 00:33:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Dan (aka Renegadediabetic)http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20309 Dan (aka Renegadediabetic) Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:41:48 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20309 Well, I had to respond to this by Emailing Dr. Jackson. I cc'ed Jimmy on the Email. I'll let you know if I get a reply. Here is what I wrote: Dr. Jackson. I’m a regular reader of Jimmy Moore’s blog and had to comment on your interactions with him on saturated fat. I have to point out a flaw in the reasoning that reduced saturated fat consumption has lead to fewer cardiac deaths. A mere correlation between the decrease in saturated fat consumption and cardiac deaths fails to account for other factors. I could argue that the reduction in cardiac deaths is due to improved treatment of heart attack victims and improved emergency medical services to get them treatment more quickly. It could very well be that saturated fat consumption has nothing to do with it. The deeper questions we must ask is, is the reduction in cardiac deaths due to a reduction in heart attacks or improved care? To answer this, we need to look at cardiovascular disease (CVD) rates over time and not just death rates. I found statistics in the American Heart Association’s Heart Disease and Stroke Statistics – 2009 Update. On page e50, we see Chart 2-18 that shows discharges for cardiovascular disease from 1970 to 2006 in the U. S. In 1970, there were about 3.3 Million discharges for CVD and about 6.1 Million in 2006. Adjusting for U. S. population (205 Million in 1970 and 299 Million in 2006) we get a rate of 16 discharges for CVD per 1000 people in 1970 and a rate of 20 per 1000 people in 2006. It doesn’t appear to me that we have reduced the rate of heart attacks, but have only gotten better at keeping people alive after a heart attack. Unless I see hard data that the reduction in saturated fat consumption is accompanied by a decrease in CVD rates, I won’t be convinced that saturated fat causes CVD. Furthermore, you state that butter is poison. Stephan Guyenet at the Whole Health Source blog points to a study of margerine vs. butter. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/10/butter-vs-margarine-showdown.html The results show that eating butter did not increase the risk of heart disease, but eating margerine did. Stehapn also analyzed studies dealing with saturated fat. First, epidemiological studies can only establish associations, but not cause and effect. Controlled trials are needed. He also analyzed controlled trials related to saturated fat. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturated-fat-and-risk-of-death-brief.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturated-fat-and-health-brief.html The controlled trials are inconclusive. I see no hard evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease. It's interesting that when people cooked with butter, lard, and bacon drippings, heart disease was rare. Furthermore, the French eat more saturated fat than Americans, but have a signficantly lower rate of heart disease. I am a type 2 diabetic who has lost 120 lbs and am controlling my blood sugar on a low carbohydrate, high fat diet, that includes all types of fat. Yes, I know that diabetics are at higher risk of heart disease, but I'm not worried that saturated fat will kill me. Thank you for participating in this debate. After reading Jimmy's blog post, I had to respond. It's good we can openly debate these issues and agree to disagree. Dan Clem Well, I had to respond to this by Emailing Dr. Jackson. I cc’ed Jimmy on the Email. I’ll let you know if I get a reply. Here is what I wrote:

Dr. Jackson. I’m a regular reader of Jimmy Moore’s blog and had to comment on your interactions with him on saturated fat. I have to point out a flaw in the reasoning that reduced saturated fat consumption has lead to fewer cardiac deaths. A mere correlation between the decrease in saturated fat consumption and cardiac deaths fails to account for other factors. I could argue that the reduction in cardiac deaths is due to improved treatment of heart attack victims and improved emergency medical services to get them treatment more quickly. It could very well be that saturated fat consumption has nothing to do with it. The deeper questions we must ask is, is the reduction in cardiac deaths due to a reduction in heart attacks or improved care?

To answer this, we need to look at cardiovascular disease (CVD) rates over time and not just death rates. I found statistics in the American Heart Association’s Heart Disease and Stroke Statistics – 2009 Update. On page e50, we see Chart 2-18 that shows discharges for cardiovascular disease from 1970 to 2006 in the U. S. In 1970, there were about 3.3 Million discharges for CVD and about 6.1 Million in 2006. Adjusting for U. S. population (205 Million in 1970 and 299 Million in 2006) we get a rate of 16 discharges for CVD per 1000 people in 1970 and a rate of 20 per 1000 people in 2006. It doesn’t appear to me that we have reduced the rate of heart attacks, but have only gotten better at keeping people alive after a heart attack. Unless I see hard data that the reduction in saturated fat consumption is accompanied by a decrease in CVD rates, I won’t be convinced that saturated fat causes CVD.

Furthermore, you state that butter is poison. Stephan Guyenet at the Whole Health Source blog points to a study of margerine vs. butter.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/10/butter-vs-margarine-showdown.html

The results show that eating butter did not increase the risk of heart disease, but eating margerine did. Stehapn also analyzed studies dealing with saturated fat. First, epidemiological studies can only establish associations, but not cause and effect. Controlled trials are needed. He also analyzed controlled trials related to saturated fat.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturated-fat-and-risk-of-death-brief.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/saturated-fat-and-health-brief.html

The controlled trials are inconclusive. I see no hard evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease. It’s interesting that when people cooked with butter, lard, and bacon drippings, heart disease was rare. Furthermore, the French eat more saturated fat than Americans, but have a signficantly lower rate of heart disease. I am a type 2 diabetic who has lost 120 lbs and am controlling my blood sugar on a low carbohydrate, high fat diet, that includes all types of fat. Yes, I know that diabetics are at higher risk of heart disease, but I’m not worried that saturated fat will kill me.

Thank you for participating in this debate. After reading Jimmy’s blog post, I had to respond. It’s good we can openly debate these issues and agree to disagree.

Dan Clem

]]> By: Davidhttp://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20293 David Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:06:26 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20293 Oh, yeah, we're all supposed to get our fat requirements from olive oil. How many people on the planet have access (or had access) to olive oil? I can tell you that my Dutch grandmother certainly didn't. Historically, people the world over have not had the variety of fruits and vegetables that we have today, either. And I don't think they ever consumed 9 servings a day! Oh, yeah, we’re all supposed to get our fat requirements from olive oil. How many people on the planet have access (or had access) to olive oil? I can tell you that my Dutch grandmother certainly didn’t. Historically, people the world over have not had the variety of fruits and vegetables that we have today, either. And I don’t think they ever consumed 9 servings a day!

]]> By: Michelehttp://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20290 Michele Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:35:01 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20290 " finally the plummeting coronary heart disease death rates across the western world"--is CAD declining, or just deaths from it? A declining death rate could be due to: public campaign to go to the ER with any chest discomfort, the emergence of more reliable and faster lab values that indicate heart damage, "clot buster" drugs, heart cath labs in many hospitals with the capability of immediate PTCAs (ballooning plaque), What's the death rate from CAD in high CHO eating countries without access to "modern medicine?" Without a low-fat diet, I don't know how humans have managed to survive and evolve to such an advance state! ” finally the plummeting coronary heart disease death rates across the western world”–is CAD declining, or just deaths from it? A declining death rate could be due to: public campaign to go to the ER with any chest discomfort, the emergence of more reliable and faster lab values that indicate heart damage, “clot buster” drugs, heart cath labs in many hospitals with the capability of immediate PTCAs (ballooning plaque), What’s the death rate from CAD in high CHO eating countries without access to “modern medicine?”

Without a low-fat diet, I don’t know how humans have managed to survive and evolve to such an advance state!

]]> By: Allen Shttp://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20285 Allen S Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:29:30 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20285 Interesting that Dr Jackson dismisses your positive results as anecdotal, but then holds up Atkins as a bad example of low carb (despite the fact that he died from head trauma due to a slip-and-fall accident.) We can argue about the studies endlessly. However, one cannot dismiss the anthropological evidence of early man who did not have access to polyunsaturates or grains. The irony is that our very humanness is defined by the diets of our early ancestors which were heavy in animal products and saturated fat. Show me a single anthropologist who refutes this evidence and then let Dr Jackson offer reasons as to why these foods have suddenly and magically become detrimental to modern humans. Interesting that Dr Jackson dismisses your positive results as anecdotal, but then holds up Atkins as a bad example of low carb (despite the fact that he died from head trauma due to a slip-and-fall accident.)

We can argue about the studies endlessly. However, one cannot dismiss the anthropological evidence of early man who did not have access to polyunsaturates or grains. The irony is that our very humanness is defined by the diets of our early ancestors which were heavy in animal products and saturated fat. Show me a single anthropologist who refutes this evidence and then let Dr Jackson offer reasons as to why these foods have suddenly and magically become detrimental to modern humans.

]]> By: mrfreddy (www.beefandwhiskey.com)http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20284 mrfreddy (www.beefandwhiskey.com) Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:08:31 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20284 You should ask this guy why and how did the diet that we evolved on for 2 million years became so dangerous sometime around 1950? Also ask why, if sat. fats are so bad, does the body actually go to the trouble of making it's own saturated fat? What a knucklehead! <i>Excellent questions, Freddy! Knucklehead indeed. --Jimmy</i> You should ask this guy why and how did the diet that we evolved on for 2 million years became so dangerous sometime around 1950?

Also ask why, if sat. fats are so bad, does the body actually go to the trouble of making it’s own saturated fat?

What a knucklehead!

Excellent questions, Freddy! Knucklehead indeed.

–Jimmy

]]> By: MCOZ-09http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/david-brown-dr-rod-jackson-and-jimmy-moore-a-saturated-fat-roundtable-discussion/6260#comment-20283 MCOZ-09 Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:00:34 +0000 http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=6260#comment-20283 Jimmy I'm amazed. There is so much scientific evidence behind the low-carb way of life. It's not high protein. It is high fat, low carb. moderate protein. Obviously, Jackson chooses to ignore the science so beautifully analyzed, so impartially (ie, scientifically) presented by Gary Taubes. Jackson is unaware of the expensive attempt to present a report with all the scientific evidence supporting the low-fat hypothesis. The attempt was abandoned. The thing that was lacking in this discussion with Jackson was the scientific evidence. It is not good enough for either side to claim that that there is evidence. It's pie in the sky without citing real evidence. Jackson is correct that anecdotal evidence is not science but he in turn did not present one iota of science to back his claim. Not only that, he makes false claims, not just about mythical scientific data but about the epidemiology of heart disease. Neither side won because the low-fatter withdrew. The low-fatter failed to prove his point but his believers will ignore this and rejoice. The low-carbers feel deflated, while seeing the ridiculousness of the low-fatter argument including his mistaken view of Atkin. I know this isn't the end of this discussion. I'm grateful to David for starting it and bringing to attention an even more stringently outspoken misguided public figure in a country dear to my heart. I'm saddened but hoping the next episode is built on the scientific evidence. <i>THANKS Mary-Clare! I present the science all the time here at my blog and my upcoming book is chock full of it. We need to have these kinds of discussions that rely more on a dedicated pursuit of truth rather than dogma. --Jimmy</i> Jimmy I’m amazed.
There is so much scientific evidence behind the low-carb way of life. It’s not high protein. It is high fat, low carb. moderate protein.
Obviously, Jackson chooses to ignore the science so beautifully analyzed, so impartially (ie, scientifically) presented by Gary Taubes.
Jackson is unaware of the expensive attempt to present a report with all the scientific evidence supporting the low-fat hypothesis. The attempt was abandoned.
The thing that was lacking in this discussion with Jackson was the scientific evidence. It is not good enough for either side to claim that that there is evidence. It’s pie in the sky without citing real evidence. Jackson is correct that anecdotal evidence is not science but he in turn did not present one iota of science to back his claim. Not only that, he makes false claims, not just about mythical scientific data but about the epidemiology of heart disease.
Neither side won because the low-fatter withdrew. The low-fatter failed to prove his point but his believers will ignore this and rejoice. The low-carbers feel deflated, while seeing the ridiculousness of the low-fatter argument including his mistaken view of Atkin.
I know this isn’t the end of this discussion. I’m grateful to David for starting it and bringing to attention an even more stringently outspoken misguided public figure in a country dear to my heart. I’m saddened but hoping the next episode is built on the scientific evidence.

THANKS Mary-Clare! I present the science all the time here at my blog and my upcoming book is chock full of it. We need to have these kinds of discussions that rely more on a dedicated pursuit of truth rather than dogma.

–Jimmy

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